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記事内リンク目次を見る / SKIPして対談を読む
突然ですが皆さん、札幌のヒップホップイベント「真髄」をご存知でしょうか?「真髄」とは北のアンダーグラウンドからマイクジャックプロダクションのメンバーとして日本語ラップシーンに名乗りを上げた LARGE IRON が発起人の異色のバトルイベントです。流行のフリースタイルバトルと違い、各自用意してきたバースで勝敗を競います。つまりライブパフォーマンスでどれだけ観客をロック出来るかで勝敗を決めるルールなので、出場者にとってはミュージシャンとしての技量が試される、ある意味フリースタイルバトルよりもシビアな大会となっています。大会の模様↓

と手短に説明しましたが、以降「真髄」の話は一切出てきません(一般的な “MCバトル” の話は登場します)。今回のメインはその大会情報を発信する「真髄TV」の特別編として LARGE IRON も所属するトウキョウトガリネズミのオーナー MC松島 がゲスト出演した回のおまけで収録された音声「真髄TV収録後トーク(2016年3月公開)」です。内容が面白いと思ったので、チャレンジのつもりでほぼ全編に渡り文字に起こしてみました。長めの記事なので大まかな話題ごとに小分けしてチェックできるように12個+1のチャプターを用意しました!
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  1. LARGE IRONとMC松島の出会い
  2. どうなの日本語ラップ?
  3. 路上の喧嘩とボクシング
  4. 音楽と仕事
  5. レペゼン音楽ファン
  6. 対東京
  7. 日本のヒップホップはカルチャー未満?
  8. 趣味と文化
  9. フライドポテトとあん肝
  10. キムタクとジェイ・Zとホリエモン
  11. 夢と現実
  12. 面白いことがしたいです。
  13. MC松島 vs LARGE IRON「FIVE WAYS」

MC松島の風変わりだけど鋭い視点。それを大人の包容力で受け止める LARGE IRON 。2人のトークを是非お楽しみください!(※エピソード毎にツイート出来るようにしています。盛り沢山の内容なのでまとまったお時間のある時や通勤通学の電車の中など合間を縫って少しずつ読み進めて頂ければ嬉しいです!)それではどうぞ!

1. LARGE IRONとMC松島の出会い

LARGE IRON: 日頃まっちゃんとは、マイクジャック(Mic Jack Production)のメンツよりもLINEとかのやりとりが多いんじゃないかなってくらいなんだけど。 実はMC松島をものすごくリスペクトしていて。

MC松島: 本当ですか?いやー恐縮です。10年前の自分に言いたいですね。それは。

LARGE IRON: 僕のバトルのキャリアはMC松島に負けたところから始まってますから。当時はライフスタイルのようにフリースタイルをしていて、「何?バトル?余裕だよ」って軽い気持ちで出た結果、コテンとやられて。あれが自分の中で戒めというか、何が起こってもおかしくないのがフリースタイルバトルなんだな、というのを最初の経験で感じられたから、もの凄く感謝しているよ。

MC松島: もう7-8年前、2008年とかですよね。僕にとって本当に大金星でしたね。あの街で荒れ狂っていたマイクジャックプロダクション。当時のバイオグラフィーなんて「199x年から活動開始し、夜な夜な破壊行為を繰り返し~」とかそういうプロフィールだったから(笑)

LARGE IRON: 確かにそうだった(笑)でも、気の良い音楽好きなお兄さんたちじゃなかった?

MC松島: そういうイメージでしたよ。俺なんて別になんてことない20歳ぐらいのMCでしたし、今でこそバトルの強い20歳くらいの子はいっぱい居ますけど、あの時MCバトル自体が札幌にはあまりなかったし、まさかっていう。で、しばらく別に優勝とかしなくても、ラージアイアンに勝った人だっていう認識されました。凄かったです。

LARGE IRON: そうなんだ(笑)懐かしいね。まあでも、肝心なのは今ですよ。どうなの?今の日本のヒップホップと。松島ともよくそういう話をするけども。
目次

2. どうなの?日本語ラップ

LARGE IRON: 正直、今ラッパーの人口も当時に比べればすごい何倍にもなっているだろうし、『フリースタイルダンジョン』なんて番組もやってるくらいでさ。小中学生からラップを始めてる子もいる。一方で、ラップの競技人口がこれだけ増えている中、ヒップホップのシェアって果たしてどれくらいなのだろうって。正直、閑散としてるよね?

MC松島: 下手したら2000年くらいの方が多いんじゃないですかね?当時の東京の人たちはソロアルバムをリリースしたらみんなZEPPとかでライブをしていたんですよね。今はそうもいかないじゃないですか。だからやはり増えてるには増えてるけど、どうなのかなっていう。

LARGE IRON: 増えてるけど、食えてるのか?みたいなね。

MC松島: ですね。これだけテレビで取り上げられていようが熱気みたいなものはあまり感じないですよね。

LARGE IRON: 昨今、札幌のヒップホップ界隈では若者のクラブ離れが言われていて、ヒップホップのパーティーには50人集まれば良いっていうのが現状じゃない?その反面EDMのパーティーは札幌でも1000人規模のパーティがボンボン打たれてるっていう。

MC松島: だいたいどの街もそんな感じらしいですね。でも僕はしょうがないのかなって思いますよ。

LARGE IRON: というと?

MC松島: やっぱり一時的な流行だったと思うんですよね。一番盛り上がってる時のヒップホップって。

LARGE IRON: うん、当時のね。

MC松島: 1970年代のブロンクスの時だって当時はクラブ、ディスコで演奏しているバンドマンの人達が DJ にとって変わった訳じゃないですか。バンドがレコードに変わってバンドマンの人達は職を失ったと思うんですよね。それを自分らもやってきたから、新しい音楽とか新しいエンターテイメントにやられてもしょうがないというか。

LARGE IRON: うん。

MC松島: ロックとかカントリーとかブルースがヒップホップに変わったっていう時点でそれは常に起こるものだと思うんで、すぐにEDM始めなかったお前が悪いよっていう。それをどんどん気付いて乗り換えていくしか生き残る方法はないはずなので、時代とか国民性のせいにして、ヒップホップの不人気を語っていてはダメだと思うんですよね。

LARGE IRON: なるほどね。でも俺らはラッパーな訳じゃん?今現在ラップを取り入れた音楽が増えて当時に比べれば日本の中でラップが浸透してるかもしれないけど、その反面、ヒップホップに対しての認知度がまだ低いのかなっていうのは感じるのだけど。

MC松島: どうなんですかね。増え続けているとは思うんですけど、イメージは悪いですよね。でもそうせざるをえない部分ってのも原因はこっちサイドにもあると思うんですよ。

LARGE IRON: それはヒップホップのイメージがあんまりよろしくないということ?

MC松島: 全員が全員そうとは思いませんけど、結構内部の人は “理解されたくない” っていう欲があると思うんですよ。

LARGE IRON: あー…。
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3. 路上の喧嘩とボクシング

MC松島: 俺はヒップホップやってるし、お前にはわかんないんだぜ、っていう。普通のJ-POPとか聴いてる奴にはこれは理解出来ないんだ、みたいなテンションをヒップホップの人は出していると思いますね。全員が認知させようと思って動いてないから、そりゃ流行らないだろって僕は思います。でも逆にそれが必要悪じゃないですけど、「俺たちはヒップホップを流行らせるためにやってる」っていう美学もあるというか。

LARGE IRON: うん。

MC松島: 例えば路上で喧嘩していて「こいつ一番喧嘩強えーよ。」と言ってる人に対して周りが、「じゃあグローブをはめて、あのチャンピオンを倒してこいよ」って言ったときに、「いや、グローブをはめるのは喧嘩じゃねえ」と言い返しているような状態だと思うんですよ。そしたら世間からしたら、「いや、じゃあボクシングの世界チャンピオンの方が強いんだったら、別に路上の喧嘩を見る必要ないじゃん」と、自然とそうなると思います。それがずっと続いてる。グローブをはめないし、リングにも上がらない。なのに「なんで俺らこんな強えのに!」って言ってる状態だと思うんですよね。

LARGE IRON: それが今の日本のヒップホップなんじゃないかと?

MC松島: 多分最初からずっとそうです。で、グローブをはめた人に対して「あれはスポーツだから。こっちは路上の “リアル” ファイトでやってるから」って言ってるから、「あっそう。じゃあいいよ。もしかしたら殴られるかもしれないし、見に行けないわ」ってなってるだけだと思います。

LARGE IRON: すげえわかりやすいね(笑)すげえわかりやすい。

MC松島: ずっとそうだと思います。だからもしかしたら流行らない方がヒップホップにメリットはあるかもしれない。その代わりやっぱり世界と戦わないといけないと思いますね。日本の紅白歌合戦に出るとか、レコード大賞を獲るとかは、凄い売れる人が居れば、もしかしたら出来るかもしれないですけど、グラミーを獲れるようなアーティストが日本から出るとか、そこを目指すべきだと思うので国内の人気とかは認知はもう要らないのかなって。
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4. 音楽と仕事

LARGE IRON: なるほど。でもさ、俺らラッパーは音楽を生活の糧にしていきたいって人が多いと思うんだけど、まっちゃんは音楽だけでメシを食っていくって人生はどう思う?

MC松島: 僕は音楽だけで、とは思ってないですね。

LARGE IRON: 他の仕事をしながらでも良いんじゃないかってこと?

MC松島: はい、どちらかいうと音楽以外でもMC松島というコンテンツで多少お金稼げたらなって。音楽だけで食ってる人の努力とか才能を目の当たりにすると全然やりたいことと違うっていうか。無理ですよ、あんなの。

LARGE IRON: 音楽で食ってる人を間近で見ると本当に大変さがわかるよね。もう四六時中、音楽のことを考えて、ものすごく音楽に人生の全てを捧げないと当然できなくて。インディペンデントでやってる人達は自分のスケジュールを全部自分で組んでいるわけだからね。

MC松島: まあ仕事ですからね。

LARGE IRON: その仕事もろくにできない奴がやっていけるのかって話だもんね。

MC松島: 僕がもし「音楽一本で食いたい」って言ってて今ずっと札幌で活動しているんだったら、かなり甘いと思いますね。理にかなってないというか。そんな奴が飯食えるって程甘い世界じゃないだろうと。

LARGE IRON: ないよね。

MC松島: 僕はそこまで東京に住みたくないなって感覚なんで。その代わり僕が目標としているのが、プロの人たちに見られるアマチュアというか。「お前は自由にやってるよな、羨ましいよ」って言われるようなことをしたいですね。

LARGE IRON: 俺は最近思うことがあって。ヒップホップ/ラップをしていることを誇りに思っている反面、どこか言い訳にしている所がある人が多いような気がしていて。今現在、ちゃんと音楽で自分の生活基盤が作れていないなら、別のことでお金を稼ぐような動きをしないと、最終的に音楽も出来なくなってしまう。

MC松島: はい。

LARGE IRON: どこのラインで音楽をやってるってことになるのかっていうのを考えた時に、例えば最低限ライブをやるとか、作品を作って何かしら公表している、とかならまだ良いんだけど、正直それもせずに「俺はラッパー」だとか…。

MC松島: そんな人います?

LARGE IRON: いや、結構いるでしょ。どうなりたいのかわからない人。

MC松島: 夢が小さすぎる人はいっぱいいますよね。今は下手したら iPhone だけあればネットに曲を出せるし、それってすごく良い事だと思うんですけど、そのせいで自称ラッパーが増えてるって意味では良くも悪くもって感じはしますよね。

LARGE IRON: うん。
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5. レペゼン音楽ファン

MC松島: やっぱり一回、みんな格付けを一個づつ下げた方が良いと思うんですよね。で、僕は自分のこと音楽ファンって言っているんですけど、僕より下にいるひとは全員音楽ファン以下にしてくれと。

LARGE IRON: その音楽ファンっていうのは、どういうこと?

MC松島: 僕は自分のことを「音楽ファン」だと思っていて。まあ曲も出しますし、ライブもしますけど、ファンの生活の一環として僕はやっているので。価値観はいろいろありますけど、アーティストって自称している人のなかで、僕よりラップが下手とか、曲を書くのが遅いとかって人はみんなファンかそれ以下に下げないと、このままだとやばいと思っているので。シーンの最低レベルが僕になるべきだと。これは良くも悪くもですけどね。

LARGE IRON: なるほど。松島レベルでようやく音楽ファンなんだと。それに比べて君はアーティストなの?っていう指針に自分がなればいいってこと?

MC松島: そうですね。

LARGE IRON: でもそれはなかなか身を犠牲にしてるね(笑)でもまっちゃんはアーティストだと思うけどね俺は。

MC松島: でも、それくらいのレベルじゃないと夢も希望もないよなっていう。年に1~10曲くらい作るだけじゃアーティストとは呼べないんじゃないかなって。

LARGE IRON: 確かにそうだよな。

MC松島: で、僕はあまり自分で言うのもなんですけど全国何位とか度々獲っていて、それでもファンの領域だと。で、お前らはどうやって飯食って、どうやって金持ちになるんだ?っていうのは見せないといけないのかなって。特に新しく始めた人に対しては。ーーー逆にアーティストとかミュージシャンではない音楽ファンの人の作る音楽をいっぱい聴くのが好きっていう、音楽ファンのファンも生まれてきても良いのかなって。

LARGE IRON: それは、よりサブカル的な派生をしてくってイメージかな?

MC松島: 同人誌みたいな感覚でもいいのかなって思いますね。売れていない漫画家よりは売れている同人誌の人が儲かっていたりっていう例もあると思うんですよ。そういう感じです。
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【次のページ】「対東京」「日本のヒップホップはカルチャーは未満?」「趣味と文化」「フライドポテトとあん肝」