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6. 対東京

LARGE IRON: 実際こうやって札幌でお互い活動している音楽ファンだったりラッパーだったりするわけなんだけど、対東京という視点、大先輩のブルーハーブ(THA BLUE HERB)が 1stアルバムの頃打ち出したスタンスで、当時僕も心の中で言ってたのが「東京出て音楽やるのなんて古いんだよ」みたいな。tha BOSS、ILL-BOSSTINOのリリックにもありましたけど。東京でヒップホップをやってる人たちと、札幌でやってる人たちの違いを感じることある?

MC松島: うーん。まちまちだと思いますけど、でも根本的にやる気が違いますよね。特に地方から東京に出て来てる人のやる気なんて本当に凄いし、だって “東京に家を借りる” 時点で相当なやる気が必要じゃないですか。

LARGE IRON: うん。

MC松島: それが例えば “地元の実家に住んでる” やつと同じやる気かって言われたら、それは違うだろうと思いますね。でもそれは作品の良し悪しに関係ないんですけどね。特に音楽に関しては、たまたまいい曲作れるかもしれないし、やる気がある人に運が巡ってくるかはわからないですけど、やる気が一番違うのかなって気はしますね。

LARGE IRON: 意識が高いんだよね。だからこそ東京に行ってやるんだよね。

MC松島: そうだと思いますね。

LARGE IRON: 東京は絶対的に人口数も違うもんね。札幌なら人口200万人都市で、東京だったら1500万人とかなのかな?まあ1000万人以上いる訳で。まずそれを求める人達の数も違うでしょ?その差ってあるのかなって。

MC松島: あと情報量が違いますよね。観れるライブの数も違うし、有名な人も東京にしか来ないこともザラなんで。日本一詳しい人、日本一曲持っている人とかたぶん全部東京に居るんで、そういう人達と会ったり出来るのは本当に違うと思いますね。

LARGE IRON: なるほどね。

MC松島: でも、それと同じくらい地方にもアーティストのメリットになることがあると思うんですよ。山が綺麗とか、空が綺麗とか、それからちゃんとインスパイアされれば別に優劣はつかないはずだと理論的には思うんですけど、でもやっぱりお金一番持っている人も東京にいるし一番有名な人も東京にいるし。ていうのはありますよね。

LARGE IRON: なんかでもアメリカのシーンを見たときにさ、特に昔はニューヨーク、ロサンゼルスってのがあってさ。でも、今のヒップホップシーンを牛耳ってるのはアトランタの人間だったりして。アトランタのプロデューサーやラッパーが作品にがんがん顔を出してるような時代になってて。アトランタって結構南部のとこでさ、田舎っちゃ田舎なわけですよ。でもそういうところが今シーンを作ってるって現状が海外でもあるし、例え札幌に住んでいたとしてもできることは当然あると思ってるんだよね。

MC松島: 僕たまに思うことがあって。例えば、ボブ・マーリーがいた頃のジャマイカだったり、ビートルズがいた頃のリバプールよりも全然いまの札幌の方が人口が多い。人口比率だけでいえば世界に名を轟かせるミュージシャンが一人か二人いてもおかしくないはずの街なんですよね。

LARGE IRON: うん。

MC松島: て考えたら決して不可能じゃないのかなと思いますけど、やはりムーブメントを起こす力っていうのは、曲作るとか以前に、民衆を先導するカリスマ性のある人材が必要だと思うんですけど、理論的にはそういうことが札幌で起きてもおかしくないのにな、とずっと思ってますね。

LARGE IRON: 何なんだろうね、タイミングとか、いろいろなものがマッチしたときにそういうことが起きるんだろうね。

MC松島: 今はその起きる確率をあげていくことしかできないですね。僕は札幌の音楽が世界の一個のジャンルになるのは甘くみて100年後だと思ってて。その100年後に大天才が生まれるんですけど、その人に良い影響が与えられればなくらいしか僕は思ってないです。

LARGE IRON: うん。

MC松島: 自分の一曲で変えるっていうのは諦めていますね。自分の一曲で100年後に生まれる天才が多少インスピレーションを受けたりとか、そいつが活動しやすい環境が残っていればくらいの貢献が出来れば、良い人生だったかなって思いますね。
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7. 日本のヒップホップはカルチャー未満?

LARGE IRON: 俺は今年36になるのだけど、マイクジャックやソロでずっとやってきて東京でやってる人達と自分を比べることもある訳ですよ。音楽性とかって部分に関して自分は負けてないと思うし、自分の存在、自分が書く歌詞、自分のフロウ、伝えたいこと、自分にしか表現できないことをやってきたつもりだけどある程度ね、自分のラッパー/アーティストとしての可能性っていうかね、正直わかってるわけですよ。僕も。

MC松島: はい。

LARGE IRON: 自分がラッパーとしてアーティストとしてヒットしてめっちゃアンダーグランドだけどすごいお金持ちになるとか、それを夢見てやっている時期じゃなくて。でも今までの人生、18くらいからヒップホップやり出そうかな、音楽でメシ食えたら良いな、って思いながら始めた、で今もうここまで36まで年重ねて来てある程度、自分の可能性ってのは結構あっさり見切りつけてるんだよね。正直ね。

MC松島: 大丈夫ですかね?そんなこと言っちゃって。 でも面白いですけどね話としては。

LARGE IRON: でも確実に今までの人生でヒップホップから受けてきた恩恵はあるんですよ。色々なものを経験出来たし、色々なものを手に入れれたし、たぶん唯一手に入れられてないのはお金くらいじゃないかってくらいヒップホップからいろいろなものを得て来てるから。アーティストとしても当然やり続けるけど、俺は残りの人生でヒップホップってものに何か恩返しができたら良いんじゃないかと。

MC松島: めっちゃいい話ですね。

LARGE IRON: それが今思えてるからやれてるし、モチベーションになってる。俺の中でヒップホップへの恩返しなんだよね。こういうことを地方都市からまた新しいことを一回やってみるってことが、ヒップホップへの刺激になればいいのかなと思って今こうやってやってはいるんだけど。

MC松島: はい。

LARGE IRON: 自分がアーティスト/ラッパーとして認知されることと同じくらいに、ヒップホップていうものをもっと世の中に浸透させていくことが、ある意味自分がヒップホップで食っていくという夢に近づくということなのかなって。ラップ/ヒップホップでメシ食いたい、それは当然の答えだとは思うんだけど、それぞれ我が強すぎる気がしてて。

MC松島: はい。

LARGE IRON: 例えば仲間がやってることに協力するとか、仲間のパーティに行くとか、 ベテランの人達も顔出すとか。「あ、〇〇さん来てる」みたいなさ。それしかないからさ。若い奴らだけだったりとか、ちょっと寂しいなと。大体決まったメンツがいるんだよね。

MC松島: ビジネス的に考えても難しさあるし、カルチャーとして考えても難しさありますよね。なんなんですかね…やっぱ働いちゃダメなんじゃないですか?BBOYは

LARGE IRON: あれ、さっき仕事はした方が良いって話だったけど?(笑)

MC松島: なんか適当に遊ぶカネだけ作って、実家に住んで、じゃないとダメだと思うんですよね。今の話聞くとやはり大体就職とか結婚とか出産とかのタイミングでヒップホップから離れちゃう訳じゃないですか、引退っていうか。その時点で僕は文化と認めてないですけどね。ずっと続けられるものじゃないと文化じゃないから。

LARGE IRON: うん。

MC松島: ずっと続けるためには30-40-50になっても結婚とかせず適当にその日のお酒代くらいを常に稼ぐっていうような、じゃないと。たぶん当時のアメリカにはそれがあったと思うんですよね。マジで差別されているだろうし、マジで治安も悪いから。日本では難しいのかなと思いますね。
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8. 趣味と文化

MC松島: 僕は趣味と文化って大きさが違うと思ってて、 “将棋をやる人” と “ボードゲームという文化” 、くらい違うと思ってて。ヒップホップってまだやっぱ日本で文化として受け入れられてない気がしますね。今流行ってるだけっていうか。

LARGE IRON: やー確かに。

MC松島: 70-80歳くらいのプレイヤーがせめて何人もいないとまだ始まったと言えないっていうか。100歳ぐらいの人と生まれたばっかりの人が共有できるのが文化だと思うんですけど、まだ居て40-50じゃないですか。だからその世代に流行ってる趣味に留まっているんじゃないかなって思いますね。

LARGE IRON: つまり我々はまだ文化の礎を築く段階のちょっと前くらいでしかないってことだね。

MC松島: 多分全体で見たら音楽で見ても「変わった歌い方が出現した時期があります」ってくらいだと思いますね。多分ロック/パンクとかを学生の時にやってた人達って今はお父さんじゃないですか。でも続けてる人もいるし、きっとその人達は続けていく。そういう前例がまだないっていうか。本当に僕たちが頑張んないといけないって話になると思うんですけど、結局。

LARGE IRON: そうだね、酒呑んでとぐろ巻いてる場合じゃないよねー。

MC松島: 文化感/コミュニティ感もあんまり感じないですね。不良が減ったと同時にヒップホップも減ってるというか。なんていうか、ヒップホップ全体で矢沢永吉さんとか浜崎あゆみさんみたいな(?)場所に行けるなら多分成立すると思うんですけど。今なんかその暴走族みたいな人たちがいなくなるにつれてやっぱヒップホップの雰囲気が減ってるっていうのは、なんかそういうものなのかなって思いますよね。

LARGE IRON: 若い人達の文化/遊び方としてヒップホップのクラブとかパーティに行くってチョイスが低いんだろうね。当時より。人口は多いし認知してる人は多いんだけど、時代的に若い人たちのトレンドになってないっていうか。

MC松島: 当時流行ってたってのもあると思いますし、クラスでイケてるヤンキーとかチーマーの人がヒップホップ好きだから、「あれはイケてるカルチャーなんだな」って認識があったと思うんですけど。今もうどっちかって言うと、いじめられっ子がマイクでは不良に勝つみたいな、完全にやられキャラの人が多いんですよね。ヒップホップって。まあそれも正しいと思うんですけど音楽としては。

LARGE IRON: オタ感が強すぎるってこと?

MC松島: 「これがあるから俺は!」っていうのはすげえ美しいし音楽はそうあるべきだと思うんですけど、故にイケてる人はEDMのクラブに行くしっていう。あと単純に音楽的にもEDMのクラブの方が一つになりやすいですよね。ヒップホップは暗いし、遅いし、英語でずっと言われてもわかんねえし。本当全然しょうがないと思います。
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9. フライドポテトとあん肝

MC松島: 唐揚げとかフライドポテトと、変わったおつまみ…、あん肝とかカラスミとか。わかんないですけど、頼むのは絶対ポテトじゃないですか(?)ていう状態なんですよ。それを認識した方が良いと思いますね、俺らはあん肝なんだから。ポテトになろうと思うのは違う。でも他の魚系のおつまみに負けないように美味しいあん肝作り続けようぜってシフトしてかないと、なかなか根付かないという感じはしますよね。

LARGE IRON: すごい話だね(笑)でも言わんとしてることはわかる。フライドポテトかあん肝かって言われたらフライドポテト頼むよな。

MC松島: 大丈夫な方を頼むじゃないですか。食べれない人いないし。でも「フライドポテトないと死んじゃうよ><」ってくらいフライドポテト好きな人と、「あん肝ないと死んじゃうよ><」ってくらいあん肝好きな人って実は人数変わらないと思うんですよね。それをちゃんとあん肝好きな人に届けないと、って感じはしますね。本当にマニアックな人の需要に提供する、供給するものが合ってない気がします。今のヒップホップって。

LARGE IRON: 日本において?

MC松島: 日本において、札幌において。インターネットでリスナーの人がアーティストの曲を聴ける/世界トップレベルの DJ の DJプレイが無料で見れるという状況で、現場のクラブで聴いた方が面白いってなるものって一個もないと思うんです。これだったら家で世界レベルのプレイを見た方がお酒も安いし好きな物を食べられるし、全然しょうがない状況なのに何を頑張ってるんだっていう。むしろ何を頑張って勝つ気でいるんだって正直思いますね。

LARGE IRON: なるほどね。自分の部屋でも iPod や iPhoneとかでも、好きな音楽を好きなタイミングで聴ける状況だもんね。

MC松島: ですね。

LARGE IRON: 音源をどこでも聴ける時代だから CD っていうのが一種のファングッズ、ジャニーズのうちわとかタオルとかグッズ的なものな気がして。でも音源だったらいくらでも加工できるじゃないですか。それ生で観たときにさ、どう表現出来てるのか。だからこそ生のライブが重要になってくるのかなって。

MC松島: そうだと思いますね。いちミュージシャンとしても。

LARGE IRON: 生での体験っていうのが、どんどんネットが進むほど価値を帯びてくるっていうかね。

MC松島: となるとさっきも言いましたけどボブ・マーリーかビートルズの YouTube を家で見るより、俺らのライブの方がやばいって要素がいくつもないとダメだと思うんですよ。

LARGE IRON: そうだね。

MC松島: それは大変ですよね。だってもっと広げて考えると、何十年も前の希少な映像とか深海の映像とか宇宙の映像とか何でもいいですけど、それを見てる人達に対して「お前ら何見てんだ?俺らのライブの方がおもしれえよ」っていう要素が全体としても必要だし、個々にもそれぞれ必要だし。

LARGE IRON: そこに立ち向かってく意識を持つことが表現者として重要だよね。自分のライブを見て音源を聴いてくれてる人達が生で観て感じてくれる為には、演じるものとして実力を常に磨かなきゃダメだよね。常日頃からまっちゃんと話してるけど。
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【次のページ】「キムタクとジェイ・Zとホリエモン」「夢と現実」「面白い事がしたいです。」